Pollution will ultimately give away a society. And this episodes will shows us the potential indicators of advanced extraterrestrial civilizations. Also the various ways such civilizations might unintentionally or intentionally reveal their presence through technological changes in their environment. This episode delves into concepts like Dyson spheres, infrared excess, and unique transit signatures.
Show Notes
- Introduction to Technosignatures
- Dr. Pamela Gay shares her recent experiences in Orlando
- Technosignature Conferences
- Detecting Technosignatures
- Extraterrestrial Communication and Detection
- Technological Impact on Detection:
- Science Fiction Possibilities:
Transcript
Human transcription provided by GMR Transcription
Fraser Cain [00:00:50] Astronomycast, episode 741, Technosignatures. Welcome to Astronomycast, our weekly facts -based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain. I’m the publisher of Universe Today. With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the director of CosmoQuest. Hey, Pamela, how are you doing and where are you?
Pamela Gay [00:01:11] I am in a hotel room in Orlando, Florida. I got to see the Firefly aerospace and ice face landers, hopeful landers, take off on a Falcon 9 last week. I had planned to go see the new Glenn launch, but I had a moment of fail. They sent out an email saying that they weren’t going to have a media site set up and it was cold and it was gross and I was like, oh, it’s not going to actually launch tonight. I decided to stay warm, wrapped up in a blanket, and it did actually launch.
Fraser Cain [00:01:51] At some point, you’re hearing the building shaking, you’re like, oh no, there it goes.
Pamela Gay [00:01:57] I have to say that as a single female traveling alone, I would not have been comfortable trying to find someplace to watch a 1 a .m. launch in an area I’m not familiar with. So I made the right choice, but yeah, it’s been amazing and I’m going to go meet with a bunch of collaborators and folks out on the Space Coast this week. And Blue Origin has a huge facility that was not here at all when you and I were out here for the Osiris -Rex launch a gazillion years ago. I just want to take photos of how big and branded with feathers their facility is.
Fraser Cain [00:02:50] Yeah, and hopefully you can get more. They did have a facility, but we just drove past it in the bus and we couldn’t see what was going on. But hopefully you can actually get in behind the scenes and do some tours. That would be amazing. Yeah, I’m hoping as humanity develops more advanced technology, we’re having a larger effect on our environment. The more we do, the more we could be detectable. And this gives us ideas on how we could detect other civilizations, even if they don’t realize we’re watching and we will talk about it in a second.
Pamela Gay [00:03:20] But it’s time for a break and we’re back.
Fraser Cain [00:03:27] So there’s a document that is rolling around out there that I’ve really been wanting to try and get my hands on about this idea of technosignatures. So NASA now does this like a conference once a year, every couple of years, where all of the top SETI technosignature researchers come together and brainstorm ideas. And it’s Jason Wright, David Kipping, and Seth Shostak, and all Grinspoon. All of these luminaries in the SETI, METI, WETI space, as well as more traditional exoplanetary researchers. And apparently there’s a list of 39 technosignatures, 39 brainstormed ideas so far of different ways that an advanced civilization could be giving off some signal of its existence. And we’ve tackled the sort of, they’re sending a message at us with radio waves or in invisible light or something, but that’s just like one or two of those potential technosignatures. When you consider the sort of broader idea of all of the different ways that a civilization could leak its existence, it’s kind of mind blowing. And some of the ideas are extremely, extremely cool and sort of very creative and out of the box ways of thinking about this. So, so like, what is a technosignature?
Pamela Gay [00:04:55] It is a signature to lame definition is lame, that says there is a technology here that is influencing the light being emitted, the spectrum of absorption lines in light that is being reflected or absorbed or otherwise a phenomenon that can only be explained through leaked or influenced signatures created by technology, which is basically a fancy way of saying that if you have a Dyson sphere, you’re going to have excess IR radiation. If you have a whole lot of pollution from chemistry, industry processes, you’re going to have absorption lines that can only be explained by technology. And these are all unintended consequences of a civilization that can
Fraser Cain [00:06:01] be detected at distance. And like, and the list goes on and from, you know, warp drive signatures as they’re moving us being caught in the stray beam of a powerful radio pulse. If, while, while a civilization is trying to communicate with another gravitational waves being used to communicate through space, as you said, you know, some of the unintended ones, like they’re in the midst of having a nuclear war and we’re detecting the gamma radiation happening on the surface of their planet as they’re bombing one another industrial pollution. Um, uh, like the list goes on. And what I love about this is that many of these are unambiguous. Yes. So while biosignatures are very ambiguous, you know, we, we still argue about whether or not there’s, there’s phosphine in the atmosphere of Venus and whether or not even phosphine is a biosignature or methane or carbon monoxide or dimethyl sulfate and all these ideas, you see, uh, a Dyson, a partially completed Dyson sphere or a, uh, a transit transiting exoplanet that is in the shape of a triangle, you know, there’s something weird going on here. That is not what the universe would naturally cook up. So can you give me some examples of indirect techno signatures?
Pamela Gay [00:07:26] Indirect techno signatures.
Fraser Cain [00:07:28] So, so the director, the ones where they’re intending on communicating with intending is letting know that the indirect are the ones where, where we’re just being, you know, we’re just being curious and we’re just snooping on their, on their existence.
Pamela Gay [00:07:40] So my, my favorite and I already hinted at it is the infrared excess from systems that have massive structures in them. These are the Dyson spheres, the rings like Larry Niven imagined with his ring world books. And there are a number of catalogs out there of, uh, all the detailed, uh, photometry of stars across many different wavelengths. And people are actively looking to see, can we find worlds with infrared access and then following up to rule out things like dust and all the normal stuff that might be able to cause infrared signatures like that. And there’s a whole list of them being followed up so far. And of course, none of them have yet proven themselves to be beyond a shadow of it out, be a Dyson sphere, but Tabby’s star gave us one heck of a wild ride. Uh, more than a decade ago, uh, the planet hunters project, a citizen science project to go through the Kepler data and look at the light curves of stars to see if there were planets that had otherwise just not been noticed by the software. And one of the stars that got flagged and was, uh, then sent to Tabitha. And I’m going to say her last name wrong. I am so sorry. She said it to me multiple times and it never sticks.
Fraser Cain [00:09:18] Tabitha Boyudjian, thank you.
Pamela Gay [00:09:21] He knows how to say it. Um, Tabitha Boyudjian, I, she is a graduate student took on this star and was trying to figure it out and ended up doing a crowd funding campaign to afford her telescope time. And ultimately it turned out to be like your normal swarm of naturally occurring objects in that solar system, but it really looked like it could be something under construction. It was amazing and showed us that we can get super excited about the possibility of life around another star and the world does not get excited with us, so I have a feeling that when we do finally find life, no one’s going to pay attention to us.
Fraser Cain [00:10:07] And, you know, we know that there are, you know, this can work at various scales at the, at the smallest scale, you know, we are, as human beings, we are producing excess waste heat. We’ve, we’ve started to increase the temperature on the planet through global warming, you know, emissions, but, but just direct, even we make them, if we make the most efficient, energy neutral, sort of technological civilization, we will still produce waste heat and that waste heap will increase over time. And people have done calculations that within a thousand years or something, we will start cooking the planet purely by the waste heat from us having an economy, like it’s all green energy, but yet it’s still producing so much waste. And you can imagine at a planetary level, you’re going to see the waste heat coming from the planet, but you can also imagine at a, like at a stellar level, as you said, you know, if you’ve, you’re starting to enclose your star in this, in this, you know, collection of satellites, you’re starting to shift the, from visible light into the infrared in a way that’s very weird and bizarre, but you can take that even to the where you have enclosed every single star in your entire galaxy and you’re creating a galaxy that it’s an infrared signature. And in fact, have been, yeah. And astronomers have done surveys for these strange point like objects that are putting out too much in the infrared and not in other wavelengths of radiation and identified like, I think six
Pamela Gay [00:11:41] candidates later last year, there was a, yeah, there were six new the total list is around 30 objects. And what’s cool is they’re using machine learning algorithms and machine learning is where you train something to identify and annotate sources. It’s not generative. It’s not large language models. Machine learning is annotating things so that human beings don’t have to go through these catalogs. And with every new, uh, listing coming out of Gaia, it’s going through and having more sources get identified by these algorithms and eventually it’s either going to hit the point of awkward that we aren’t finding any, or we’re going to find something to follow up on. I hadn’t known about the galaxy idea though. And now I’m like, Oh, so when we find these dark matter dominated galaxies, we need to give them a triple look to make sure that it isn’t just like an overly zealous Dyson sphere creating civilization. And that’s not something I’d thought of before.
Fraser Cain [00:12:51] Well, and the other thing is kind of interesting is there’s all these amazing ideas about moving stars as I do scat off thrusters where you could, you know, you, you have this giant mirror that you build that was on one side of the star and then the radiation from the star pushes the mirror away from the star, but then the gravity from the mirror pulls at the star and the star actually then pulls itself around in whatever direction you orient the mirror. And you can move incredibly quickly. You can end up moving, uh, like to 25 % the speed of light. You can be moving your star at 25 % the speed of light after a million years of using this thruster. And so you can over reasonable amounts of time, definitely less than a billion years, you can completely rearrange all of the stars in your galaxy to a more pleasing shape. And so you, again, you can look out into the universe and you can look for galaxies, you know, spiral, spiral, spiral, dodecahedron. Wait, what, you know, where someone has gone, what is the best structure for a galaxy? And they can have moved that entire galaxy. And, you know, I’ve seen some really cool simulations where you end up with like a super massive black hole with like a billion times the mass of the sun that’s surrounded by a collection of supermassive black holes, each of which has, uh, 10 million times the mass of the sun. And then each of those is surrounded by black holes. And then those are surrounded by stars and then those, and you could have a million terrestrial planets in one system where you could communicate within a couple of light days to every single planet within your entire million planet system. And it’s like, obviously boggles the imagination, but we just look for weird things that people have constructed out in the universe. All right, we’re going to continue having this conversation, but it’s time for another break.
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Speaker 3 [00:16:47] And we’re back.
Fraser Cain [00:16:48] So that’s one example where we’re sort of seeing them at a really incredible level, but I think another thing that’s really important to talk about is just like we could see transits of things that give off a strange signature.
Pamela Gay [00:17:06] Yes, and this can take many different forms and we’re getting to the point that we’re starting to be able, we think, to detect moons within transits where what’s happening is when you round object pass in front of a, we’re going to pretend my iPad is round and looking to see what I’m advertising. Okay. Um, as that round object passes in front, it’s, it’s roundness causes the light to go down a little bit down, down, down, down flat. And then as it comes out the other side, it has a characteristic, the way it goes down flat and the way it goes up that can, I mean, it can be caused in different ways, but the simplest way to cause it is by having a round object pass in front of the star. Now, if instead you have that triangle that you had mentioned earlier as, as it goes in, especially if you have something, I have nothing triangle shaped in my area. I’m going to grab apparently my track pad. So if you imagine, uh, we’re going to call this a triangle as it passes in front, that’s not going to cause a different shape of dip. And if it has the flat edge going in front first, that is a wildly different shape. So by how the shape passes in front of the star, you’re going to end up with different kinds of shapes to how it gets down to that flat point at the bottom of the eclipse. And we only know how to explain round things and things that would be like two round things next to each other. We can explain that and nothing else. And where you can’t explain it, that’s where you start blaming civilizations that built really big stuff.
Speaker 3 [00:19:15] Yeah.
Fraser Cain [00:19:16] And someone did the math and found that, that that’s the most efficient way to communicate your existence to the universe that attempting to broadcast with radio waves or attempting to, um, you know, send a tight beam radio or a blazer at some other star system on a regular basis uses up a lot of energy on an ongoing basis, but if you could build a giant Mylar sheet, uh, or cloud of satellites and organize them into a specific shape, and then you just let orbital momentum, keep them going around your star system for literally ever, um, and then you are now broadcasting to the entire universe. You know, it’s just civilization here, right? Whether that’s a good idea or a bad idea, who knows, but, but you can imagine some civilization making that investment and saying, you know, let’s put out our for sale sign or put out our, our, uh, open to chat sign, um, to the universe and then you just put up this thing and it just goes around. And every time someone looks at the star system, the, where they’re lined up, they see this triangle. They’re like, okay, there are people there.
Pamela Gay [00:20:23] And there’s subtleties in this that, that are the things that I really am fascinated about. So we know we’re eventually going to need to have communication satellites that allow us to talk to anyone, anything that we want to communicate with on Mars when Mars is on the far side of the sun with us. And so the way to do this is to start putting equally spaced spacecraft around the orbit so that they can beam information to each other, to get it to us. Now, imagine having massive space stations, evenly spaced in their orbits where they’re all in the same orbit and you keep seeing dip in light and you can see how fast something’s moving in its orbit by how long it takes it to pass in front of the disk of that star. But then it keeps happening such that you can’t explain the dips and the crossing time by a single object. Once you start figuring out, Oh, that’s five exactly evenly spaced objects, that’s, that’s not something that the universe put there on its own. And that’s where it starts to get Isaac Asimov futures written in eclipses.
Fraser Cain [00:21:46] And kind of related to that, people have proposed that you, like when planets are transiting and especially when you have multiple planets transiting at the same time, it’s the perfect opportunity to watch that star system, you know, think about the TRAPPIST -1 system too. You know, the planets are all lined up from our perspective. And so we see them as they pass in front of the star. But if we watch and see two of the planets passing in front of the star at the same time, then one planet might be attempting to communicate with the other planet and they’re going to send a radio pulse or a laser pulse at the other planet. And we could get caught in the crossfire. So we would detect the leaked signals when one planet was communicating with the other planet in this direct way. And so astronomers have proposed that we direct our radio telescopes at TRAPPIST in those moments where you’ve got those alignments in front of the star. All right, we’re going to talk about some more ideas, but it’s time for another break.
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Fraser Cain [00:24:17] So I want to talk about some of the stuff that like we’re doing to our atmosphere that perhaps other civilizations would be able to detect and how they might be able to do it.
Pamela Gay [00:24:28] Well, there there’s things that don’t belong in our atmosphere that luckily are decreasing an amount like
Fraser Cain [00:24:34] chlorofluorocarbons.
Pamela Gay [00:24:36] Those are complex molecules. Those of you who grew up in the eighties remember a hair spray suddenly went from being the stuff that you could use to create flame throwers. If you were an appropriately minded middle schooler to being like these very boring squirt bottles. And the reason that all of our Aquanet suddenly changed was the decision to try and prevent more chlorofluorocarbons from getting into our atmosphere unless we absolutely had to
Fraser Cain [00:25:11] have them.
Pamela Gay [00:25:11] There was similar attempts to change out air conditioning, cooling fluids, and that’s an ongoing process as houses get their systems changed as old cars get their systems
Fraser Cain [00:25:26] changed.
Pamela Gay [00:25:27] But there’s going to be a large swath of time in Earth’s history where our atmosphere had all these chlorofluorocarbons that can be with high enough resolution spectroscopy detected in how the sun’s light gets changed as it passes through the Earth’s atmosphere and then detected by whoever is out on just the correct line through the
Speaker 3 [00:25:52] sky.
Fraser Cain [00:25:53] And there are papers out there right now that where people have done the calculations based on how much time it would take for James Webb to be able to detect chlorofluorocarbons in the atmosphere of an exoplanet, say at the TRAPPIST -1 system.
Speaker 3 [00:26:06] And it’s not a lot.
Fraser Cain [00:26:08] Like it is within the capability of James Webb and it’s absolutely within the capability of the next generation telescopes like the Hubble World Observatory and so on to be able to make those kinds of detections out to hundreds of light years away. It’s such a strong chemical in the atmosphere, gives off a very unique signal and there is no natural way that you could produce that chemical. It has to be a technosignature.
Pamela Gay [00:26:36] And there’s a whole suite of different molecules that as far as we know can’t be produced another way. Now, as you pointed out, people periodically try and come up with ways to explain molecules that we believe are related to life in one way or another and blame geology, but things like chlorofluorocarbons, we just can’t get there from here.
Fraser Cain [00:27:01] And so we are, over time as we develop new chemicals and we put them into our atmosphere for good or for evil, those will be detectable by other civilizations. We’re like, oh, I remember the time when we thought it was a good idea to pump that chemical into the atmosphere to try and prevent climate change, right? We can watch them doing it. But then the other thing is that we are putting out electromagnetic radiation and there’s this classic, was it
Speaker 3 [00:27:34] contact? Yes.
Fraser Cain [00:27:36] Cause, contact where the movie starts with this sort of increasing bubble of radio waves that are moving away from the earth where, where you get, you know, different television shows at different times, because we’ve been broadcasting radio waves out into the universe for a hundred years.
Pamela Gay [00:27:53] And it’s not coherent enough that, unless they know exactly what they’re looking for as they try and deconvolve all the signals from all the different stations, they’re not going to be watching I Love Lucy. They might be watching the first Olympic broadcast cause there really wasn’t anything it was competing with, but we’re sending out radio signals that can’t be explained naturally. And it’s just a mass of, of changes across all these different wavelengths that basically screams something here is using this technology. And over time we’re going to probably see the system change where we’re already starting to realize that if we want to get much higher bandwidth transit transmissions between earth and Mars, I’m just going to keep using Mars as an example. We’re going to want to start using laser transmissions and that is much more point to point. But to use your Trappist example, when those two worlds are lined up just right, that beam broadens and what isn’t eclipsed by the planet you’re transmitting to is going to go out to potentially be observed by other places in our galaxy, probably not beyond just because resolution is a thing, but we’re polluters in all sorts of different ways. And that’s how we’re going to get found.
Speaker 3 [00:29:31] Yes.
Fraser Cain [00:29:32] And like right now we couldn’t detect ourselves. We don’t have the telescopes to be able to detect our brightest radio emissions, the ones that are being sent out in all directions, but we have a telescope that’s coming, the Square Kilometer Array, which will be operational in the early 2030s. And that someone had told me that it would be capable of detecting the air traffic control system from earth from a hundred light years away.
Pamela Gay [00:29:59] Which is just amazing to imagine.
Speaker 3 [00:30:02] Yeah. Yeah.
Fraser Cain [00:30:03] So, you know, it will, it could be your cell phone provider on Mars, right? Could, you know, could pick up your cell signal while you’re, you’re talking to
Speaker 3 [00:30:16] someone from Mars.
Fraser Cain [00:30:17] Uh, it’s going to be kind of amazing. And, and, you know, we are not by any stretch of the imagination, advanced civilization, you know, you can imagine what the, the, the one that the civilization has been around for 10 million years and has built a radio telescope, the size of their entire star system, what they would be capable of, of detecting through these radio emissions. So, um, uh, so that’s all great. And then, you know, there’s some really interesting science fiction ideas where, you know, we can imagine like warp drives.
Pamela Gay [00:30:56] And high energy particles that get created in all of these different kinds of reactors, we’re forever trying to figure out the origins of this or that cosmic ray and a lot of them we can’t, we never will, but you can imagine that you start to detect basically a line of, of places where these particles are emanating from. And that could be essentially your signature of some sort of a nuclear or matter, anti -matter or otherwise generating wild high energy particles spaceship going by emitting these particles as it goes. And as we get more and more into multi -messenger astronomy, where we’re combining our ability to look at things, uh, in all the colors of light, looking at things through particles and ultimately looking at things also in your gravitational signatures, we’re not going to be detecting the gravitational signatures of a normal spacecraft, but the particles and the light are things that you can imagine string of gamma rays, infrared excess. Oh, that is a matter anti -matter drive
Fraser Cain [00:32:14] over there. Did you see the paper where they were talking about how we could use LIGO to detect a warp drive failure?
Pamela Gay [00:32:23] No, that one I missed.
Fraser Cain [00:32:25] Tell me more.
Speaker 3 [00:32:26] Yeah, yeah.
Fraser Cain [00:32:27] So, so just that, that, you know, when a warp drive is operating, it’s going to be essentially moving space time and that’s going to be creating gravitational wave ripples as this thing goes past. But the thing that would be the largest broadcast of gravitational waves would be when the warp drive bubble fails and collapses, and that you would then get this shock wave of, of gravitational waves would emanate from wherever the, the warp drive failed. And that would be the clearest, strongest signal that we could receive that, that someone is out there using a warp drive is when
Speaker 3 [00:33:00] they all died.
Pamela Gay [00:33:02] And that’s at a resolution LIGO can see?
Fraser Cain [00:33:05] I mean, it depends on the distance. Okay. So yeah, it just depends on how far away it is. Like LIGO is amazing. Like you can detect colliding black holes hundreds of millions of light years away. I’m not sure how far away it could detect a warp drive moving through the Milky Way.
Pamela Gay [00:33:19] And it’s the frequency issues. So as, as we start looking for smaller compact objects that are crashing into each other, we’re going to start meeting the resolutions that Lisa’s going to give us. And as we figure out, oh, this, this is the signature of an exploding warp coil.
Fraser Cain [00:33:37] That’s sad.
Pamela Gay [00:33:40] I, it, what frequency band is it going to be in? Is this the next wow signature that we’re going to find? It actually does turn out to be something cool.
Speaker 3 [00:33:50] Yeah, that’d be cool.
Pamela Gay [00:33:50] Yeah, this, the pollution that causes astronomers to curse and blame whatever the next generation version of pigeon poop in their detector is could very well end up being civilization. And that’s just amazing to think about.
Speaker 3 [00:34:08] Yeah, yeah. Awesome.
Fraser Cain [00:34:09] So, I mean, this is just like we’re literally just scratching the surface of some of the amazing ideas that people have proposed.
Pamela Gay [00:34:17] Yeah.
Fraser Cain [00:34:18] And, you know, I keep I mentioned in the beginning of this episode that there’s this list.
Speaker 3 [00:34:23] I really want to give my hands
Fraser Cain [00:34:24] on this list, because then I can provide this kind of comprehensive breakdown of all of the ideas. But I hope that gives people. So any time you do anything, ask yourself, could we find aliens doing that thing? What what signals are we giving off as we just run about our daily lives? Yeah, it’s very cool.
Speaker 3 [00:34:42] Awesome.
Fraser Cain [00:34:43] Well, thanks, Pamela. Thank you, Fraser.
Pamela Gay [00:34:44] And thank you to all the people out there who support us via Patreon. We would not be here without you. And we’re in the process of cleaning up our website. And you’re allowing Aviva and Allie and Rich to really allow us to get things cleaned up into a new age. This week, I would like to thank Alan Gross, Alex Cohen, Andrew Stevenson, Andy Moore,
Fraser Cain [00:35:13] Bebop Apocalypse,